Good morning everyone! This will be an interesting, but disturbing class. The material is graphic and crucially important to understanding O'Brien's historical context in In the Lake of the Woods.
Agenda:
-We will be watching various sections of a PBS documentary on the My Lai Massacre
-After watching the documentary, you will explore an interview with Tim O'Brien about his experiences in Vietnam
-After viewing the documentary and exploring the interview, answer the following questions (post on the blog):
1. Has watching the documentary and reading the interview on My Lai changed your reading of In the Lake of the Woods by O'Brien? Do you feel as though you can sympathize with Wade on some level, or are his actions completely unforgivable?
2. What was your prior knowledge of the massacre? Do you think the fact that the My Lai Massacre is somewhat mysterious and unknown to many people adds to the complexity of the novel? How so? Do you think that if something of this caliber is concealed by those involved that the general public will ever know the true story?
3. How does having some type of historical context incorporated into a fictional text effect you as a reader? What historical events or time periods are you considering for your own writing piece (this can be a list)?
HOMEWORK:
-FINISH MAGICAL REALISM STORIES!
-Finish blog questions
-Read up to Pg. 146
1.) I think this raises one of the most important military discussions that still carries a lot of relevance today and that is the lack of care for soldiers that have experienced traumatic events during their tours. Soldiers often struggle with the memories of killing enemies, so to have killed innocent children/women/elders would most likely have an even heavier impact on his mind and ability to deal with what life has thrown at him. That being said it cant become the soul basis to excuse Wade from his actions, because regardless of whether or not you intended to kill someone, or weren't completely in control, you still killed them.
ReplyDelete2.) I personally had no prior knowledge to the massacre however I feel that learning about the massacre visually sheds a lot of perspective on Wade and changes how you might feel about him. When you read about something like the My Lai massacre it can make you feel sad or pull on some emotion but to see real pictures/video of what happened puts a whole new layer of color, as well as pain into the incident. Even as someone who has become quite dulled to gore and violence nothing could really prepare me to see a kid with a chunk of his face blown off, which would be unsettling for even the toughest person. I feel that luckily at this point photography of wars was unregulated so the ability for the public to receive knowledge on what happened is much easier to access than modern media of the same caliber. -Jack Symes
1. It has sightly changed my opinion of Wade. To have seen bodies all over the floor and be ordered to shoot civilians can mess up a person. Images of the dead will stay at the back of their minds and paranoia doesn't just go away. Even if he wanted to stop, he couldn't because those higher up than him were giving him orders to shoot and murder. Still, Wade has this urge to kill ever since he was a kid, so I don't exactly sympathize with him. He could have enjoyed the war and getting a chance to kill.
ReplyDelete2. I might have heard about it a few years ago in U.S. History, but if we covered it, then it was only for a few minutes. If not this particular massacre, then another. There are probably dozens of them that we've never heard about. Part of Wade's anger could be fueled by having to keep this a secret and deal with it on his own. He probably couldn't even tell Kathy. If something so big and bloody can be covered up, then the public would probably never know unless a few soldiers decide to reveal the truth.
3. Historical context makes the story more believable. It gives the reader a place to reference and provides extra clues as to why the characters behave the way they do.
List:
1. I have no idea. My first idea had a modern time period, but that probably won't be interesting. And not really historical.
2. My other idea is to set it within a book! BR 3? A few years after the attack? All adults held prisoner? Not historical either.
3. Japan after WWII! Probably this one. I'll think of something.
1. Watching the documentary has definitely changed the reading. It's made John Wade's experiences a whole lot more real. It has opened my eyes to the situation that Wade and his company were in, in Vietnam. On a very small level, I can sympathize with Wade. They didn't know. They were told they were firing on Vietcong, not civilians. On the other hand, once it was clear that they were killing women and children, it should have been obvious that these were not enemy soldiers.
ReplyDelete2. I had no prior knowledge of the massacre. I think that the mystery of what happened that day definitely adds to the complexity, especially because Tim O'Brien can mold the mystery to his advantage. Since so little is known about it, O'Brien can change the details and make it a part of his story, make it fictional, but still have it be the horrible event that it was. I don't think the public will ever know the true story if the people involved don't want it to be known.
3. The historical context makes John Wade's story seem more real. It also gives a sense of the times, accentuating the kind of secrecy that is going on in the novel. I'm not sure what kind of historical events. Maybe the mid 20th century, something to do with a Hollywood death, I don't know.
2.) Cont-- Due to modern locks on media many incidents that could be compared to the massacre are easily swept under the rug (something you couldn't do back when free media was allowed) and I believe if people were really allowed to see everything that did go on we most definitely would not being over seas right now, and quite a few government officials would be in jail.
ReplyDelete3.) The inclusion of real life occurrences I believe can really help enhance the story of the novel because it helps break the barrier between reality and fiction and pulls the reader into the story, which is one of O'Brien's favorite things to do. It also helps us further understand Wade because to have had him kill people would be one thing, but to be able to go and watch and see the people he supposedly killed makes it much more vivid and helps it hit home. 1950-1990 -Jack Symes
1. Wade's actions are a bit more understandable given the context of his situation; the My Lai massacre put the soldiers in a position of severe moral conflict. In the documentary you had the soldiers who refused to shoot the civilians but couldn't do anything about those who found their actions justified on that day. I think this feeling of powerlessness felt by those conflicted soldiers is very similar to the powerless feelings of Wade after losing the political election.
ReplyDelete2. I had no prior knowledge of this specific massacre. For the reader who doesn't know much about My Lai it allows Wade's traumatic past to develop as you read forward, and for the reader who does know it gives them the edge of understanding him a bit better early on.
3. Historical background really helps to set a tone. Knowing the setting of a story develops the mood and allows the reader to make an easier connection to the theme of the story. my story takes place in early Salt lake city, during the westward expansion of American history. I'm hoping to touch on the subjects of Manifest Destiny and the changing roles of religion to develop the characters and their conflicts.
1) I never really knew much about the massacre, and it meant that I didn't really think about it a lot, I didn't think about how it affected Wade much. I just had this very basic idea that a bad thing happened in Vietnam. Knowing more about it now, I have a deeper understanding of Wade, and what he's been through, and how it could shape him. I feel like doing something bad is only justified if it's really for the greater good, and even then it might not be. There's never justification for some of the things people do, like rape or torture or murder. But there's an understand to be had. You can understand what drove somebody to do that. Some pedophiles molest kids because they were molested. It doesn't make it right; but you at least understand it.
ReplyDelete2) I don't think I've ever heard of the massacre before now. I think the mystery surrounding it helps the novel. Having such a mysterious event in Wade's past helps add mystery to his motives. I think that people can know what happened, but not understand it all the way. It's like there's been a decay over the period of time when it was hidden information.
3) (affect*) I think using real events helps bring it to life a little. You can make up a massacre, and you'll just think "oh that was bad, it probably messed him up." It ends there though. With real events things come to life. You know that an event was bad and that it messed the people involved up for good. I've thought about writing about all kinds of time periods, I find a lot of revolutions (American, French) to be fascinating, I've thought about writing about a few different wars (WWII, Vietnam, and some others.) I've even thought about writing stories focused on hunter-gatherer humans from 20,000 years ago.
1. Watching the documentary on the My Lai massacre reminded me of how dangerous the mentality of war can be. Especially in the circumstances of Vietnam, where children of 18 and 19 were forced to go to war where the expectation is to commit mass homicide, people can be so easily corrupted by the greatest socially acceptable evil. Soldiers are manipulated by their superiors into believing unthinkable things about notions of "the enemy" and what they must do to defeat this invented enemy. The same methodology has been used for centuries by not only armies, but religious and political leaders to coerce people to slaughter each other with out thought. And it is was in this way that John Wade, the great manipulator, and his fellow soldiers were manipulated into killing the people of the village of My Lai.
ReplyDelete2. Before watching this documentary I only knew that the My Lai massacre existed because of what I had read about it in In the Lake of the Woods. I do not believe that O'Brien chose this particular atrocity in order to add mystery to the book, but perhaps to make the events that occurred in My Lai less mysterious in the eyes of his readers. Because it is in his novel, all of his readers have become aware of events that they would have never known about otherwise. On another level, there is a huge question of truth and the morality of truth surrounding the events that took place in My Lai, subject matter that is constantly mirrored in O'Brien's work. In that way the use of My Lai has a greater symbolic and thematic value. I'm sure that there isn't a single American soldier that participated in the My Lai massacre that is capable, let alone willing, to tell the whole truth about their own participation in the killing or even what they witnessed their friends doing because they did nothing to stop it.
3. Having history interlaced in any work of fiction stains it with an inescapable reality. The moment something real is mentioned in a story, the reader can no longer shake off the disturbing parts of the narrative off as pure fiction, because their is always that metallic tang that the events portrayed as untrue mimic so closely what could have happened in reality.
I've really liked writing about Tudor England in the past, but I think I'm going to write about the early 1900's for this project. My history class as well as English and Mr. Craddock's class are all focusing on that time period right now, so I will have a bounty of information to use for historical context. And I just think there is something so romantic about the women in that era. The flappers and the suffragettes and the first movie stars, I like them all.
1. I think that making Wade part of the My Lai massacre makes the reader much more conflicted about him as a character. You don't want to feel for him, you want to hate him, but this trauma makes it kind of hard. It's almost the same principal as 'never speak ill of the dead.' 'Don't hate veterans (especially Vietnam vets) because they've had a much harder life that you ever will' seems to be this sort of unspoken law in our society which makes it hard for us to think clearly about Wade's character. You dont want to hate him and you dont want to forgive him because on many levels he has done the unforgivable.
ReplyDelete2. I'd never heard of the My Lai Massacre before today. We'ver never gotten far enough in any of my history classes to really talk about the Vietnam War in depth. The most I ever learned about it was from Tim O'Brien's The Things They Carried which we read earlier this year in english. I knew there were terrible things done in the war, that it was one that people dont really like to talk about because we lost and because it was so terrible but I'd never heard about what exactly made it that way. I think that making it part of In the Lake of the Woods was a real master stroke because the whole book is about mystery and people covering things up which happened on a much larger scale with My Lai. It parallels a lot of things in the book and also makes Wade's character much more complex. The fact that he was part of this massacre makes him slightly more sympathetic but also more despicable. It's a thin line to walk and O'Brien is doing it very well.
3. Using real events in fiction, especially historical, makes the world seem so much more real. I mean if you think about it, making pop culture and political references when writing a story set in modern day makes it kind of it's own version of historical fiction. Technically anything written in the 1800s about a fictional character's life in the 1800s is historical fiction and makes the story seem much more real. I'm thinking about writing something from the 50s to the 90s (I know that's a very broad spectrum but it'll get narrowed down).
-Amelia
1. I think it gave me more of a real insight into the things Wade experienced or took part in. Knowing that O'Brien is an author that links Vietnam into his stories, by him using John Wade's character, this "Sorcerer", that did some pretty messed up things during the war, he makes his character so real. I sympathize with him, because he was put into a situation where he might have felt that he did what he had to do, but his actions are inexcusable. I feel for him and his mindset being torn by his true self and his alter ego. But it does not remove the fact that he did things that were uncalled for. The African American soldier in the documentary said something that really stood out to me. Kenneth Hodges, Squad Leader said: "I am a soldier and I received and obeyed the orders that were issued to me by my superiors. The order was to kill or destroy everything in the village, the children happened to be there. The people of that village were Vietcong or Vietcong sympathizers. Maybe some see it differently. That's the way I see it." That to me, turned my stomach. I think it shows the mindset of some of the soldiers whose morals weren't completely intact. It makes me understand where they're coming from but I don't agree with it. There's no excuse.
ReplyDelete2. I knew that American soldiers went in and did some horrible things. I remember in AP World History last year we didn't want to dwell on the subject because of how depressing it truly was, but in grade school I read a lot of books and accounts of "Vietnam Survivors". I read civillian's stories as well as some soldier's accounts. I had also seen movies and photographs, so I knew a little, but I'd never seen actual footage in that way.
I think due to the fact that O'Brien is an author that gives this glimpse into the "war world" and incorporates aspects of Vietnam in his writing it can't be too mysterious. This novel, makes you think. I think due to the fact that some people don't know about the My Lai Massacre it can add a lot of complexity to the novel but that's what engulfs the reader.
"What's done in the dark will always come to the light." That is something I strongly believe. We may never know the complete truth as a general public but those who were involved sooner or later will have the guilt tearing at them from within. Someone always finds out, somehow. Nothing can ever stay 100% a secret, especially something of that caliber. An entire village, full of civillians, innocent people, mothers, children, the elderly... Nothing that terrible can stay a secret.
3. It's hard to decipher the fact from fiction, the true from false, the real world and the storyline become intertwined... But it makes me love the reading that much more. I think I become so consumed by it because there's this aspect of reality that 'm so drawn to and his historic essence that just has me wanting to know more. It makes the characters so easy to become attached to because it's like you're getting to a know a real person. They're no longer a character. It makes me want to read more and get to know them more, almost like a friend.
I think a lot of things could be written about could be the Holocaust or less known about massacres like the Moro Crater Massacre, The Santa Maria Massacre, The Hula Massacre. Or even current things like Syria, or Israel and Palestine, the bombing of the embassies in Yemen and Turkey, Desert Storm, even more personal because it's my mother's hometown The Ponce Massacre in Puerto Rico. And there's just so much more.
I actually have the desire to join the Marines and seeing how Tim O'Brien uses his experiences as an author, I could see myself doing the same thing.
1) No. I still haven't read very far into the book, so I don't know how Wade's experiences have affected him. I'm guessing that maybe he attributes his anger to his experiences, but I don't think that would be valid justification if he didn't take any initiative to sort out and handle his feelings after his experiences.
ReplyDelete2) I had no prior knowledge of the massacre. I think the fact that the massacre is unknown to many people does add to the complexity of the novel because it allows O'Brien to present it how he wants to at the pace he wants to. Regarding the concealment of the event, I think that firsthand accounts are important to the search for truth, but it doesn't much matter because historical truth is usually unreachable.
3) In my opinion, the historical context doesn't affect me directly, it allows the writer to affect me more because I know less about what I'm reading.
1)I don't think that the My Lai massacre justifies his actions but it definitely reveals his manor toward the world and toward Kathy. It makes it understandable why he is a bit insane. Definitely not unforgivable. However the documentary did show the trauma John Wade is suffering from.
ReplyDelete2) I think the fact that many people are unaware of the My Lai massacre actually takes away from the story unless you do a little research. I didn't know what it was at all before the novel was presented in class but i had heard of it before.I really doubt that the whole truth will ever surface. Once people start something out as a secret its hard to get straight facts out of those involved and stories get twisted around so much that some things get exaggerated or left out.
3) Adding true events into a fiction story i would say makes a story way more interesting simply because it incorporates what's real to whats made up, which makes something sound like it could be so true. I could actually see John Wade being a traumatized soldier who has picked up dramatic ways that are not allowing him to be so adaptable. It also makes me acknowledge more of a historical event that i may or may not know much about. Most times there are parts of history that i never knew that a book reveals to me. In my story i have no idea what time period or event i will try to collaborate with my fiction but uhm.....yeah
1. After watching the documentary and reading the interview on My Lai it doesn’t necessarily change my reading of In the Lake of the Woods but it does give me this whole new perspective of what could or could’ve happened. Being as though Wade was apart of a massacre I honestly can say that I do unfortunately sympathize for Wade on some levels. Being a soldier under command, under a higher power is not at all an easy or pleasant experience. Given orders against your will, let alone told to kill an innocent child or a mother or father is quite devastating. I can see why Wade keeps this wall up as if he has to be tough and very aggressive toward Kathy.
ReplyDelete2.I had no prior knowledge of the massacre. Being as though the My Lai massacre is unknown to so many people really does keep us open minded as to what Wade really experienced. Learning about the massacre really kept me open minded as to the feeling wade feels and really brings light onto his situation at hand.
3. The historical context ultimately gives the story a sense of realism. Brings Wade’s situation to life.
1. I don't necessarily feel that that reading and video changed my view of Wade. Something like the My Lai Massacre is bound to change someone; it's a fundamental basis in psychology. Stressful/traumatic events will undoubtedly edit someone's personality. To a degree, I've always sympathized with Wade. I understand where his actions are coming from, and they're not entirely under his control. He's seen some pretty messed up things, and although I can't deny that he was twisted to begin with, I feel comfortable saying that not all of his bad aspects are his fault.
ReplyDelete2. I already knew quite a bit about the My Lai Massacre. As demented as it may sound, things like this fascinate me. I'm not the biggest person on excessive gore (which is a defining characteristic of the My Lai Massacre), but large-scale events like this or the Rape of Nanking are just utterly fascinating. The fact that people could do such horrible things is incredible. Anyways, the fact that the massacre isn't very well-known definitely helps add to the mystery. Some people might take it as another one of O'Brien's "This is real, but it's fake" things. Those that have heard whispers of it on the internet will be drawn right in. Those of us that already researched into it before reading the book will raise an eyebrow and won't put down the book. Yet since many don't know what it is, they're going to be interested. "What is this?" "That's pretty messed up for fiction." "Might as well find out." Something like that.
3. Historical context is the best. It helps me relate more to the characters, and in cases like this where I already knew about the event being referenced, it just gives me a much stronger understanding of the book. Actions can become justified if there's historical context.
Since I'm writing this late to make up for being absent when it was done in class, I can't really say what I'm "thinking about writing." However, here's what I considered:
1919 Anarchist Bombings, Bubonic Plague Era, the Rape of Nanking, Hadrian's Wall, Around Edison's time, Medieval Era